David Bain was the sole survivor when 5 members of his immediate family were shot and killed in their Dunedin home in 1994. Suspicion at first fell on his father Robin, but four days later the police ruled out the murder/suicide theory and arrested 22-year-old David. Key pieces of evidence were David’s bloody fingerprints on his .22 rifle, a bloody handprint on the washing machine, what appeared to be a suicide note from Robin on the family computer, and eyewitness evidence of David completing his morning paper run around the time of the murders. Despite conflicting evidence and claims, the High Court in 1995 dismissed the murder/suicide theory, and convicted David Bain of murdering his mother, father, brother and two sisters.

Joe KaramWhat followed is a monument to the integrity and single-minded dedication of former All Black Joe Karam. There was a Listener article about Karam a few weeks ago, which counted the cost of his 13 year quest for justice for this young student, who he had never met prior to Bain’s conviction in 1995. Karam lost up to $5 million, and suffered the breakdown of his marriage and the loss of many friends.

Last night Bain’s murder conviction was overturned by the Privy Council in London, who cited nine reasons why the original trial was biased against Bain. The result is massively embarrassing for New Zealand’s legal system, and a vindication for supporters of London’s Privy Council as opposed to the new Supreme Court – two of the Court of Appeal judges who dismissed Bain’s appeal are now on the new Supreme Court. Without access to the Privy Council, Bain’s trial would never have been overturned. As Stephen Franks said:

The Privy Council decision is also a catastrophic affirmation of the size of our loss when we abandoned our right to neutral international referees. Joe Karam called this morning for the resignation of the two Supreme Court judges who refused an appeal while on the Court of Appeal. That kind of erosion of confidence in the quality of justice in New Zealand was inevitable from the moment the “indigenisers”, led by Hon Margaret Wilson, got their hands on the tiller.

Capital punishment

The nine reasons cited by the five Law Lords are nine reasons to distrust the courts in all high-profile cases. For example, relevant evidence about Robin Bain’s mental state and his possibly incestuous relationship with his teen-prostitute daughter was dismissed, and the jury was told that Robin was “balanced” and “devout.” Evidence about the time the computer was turned on could not have been precise. Broken glasses were said to be David’s, where they actually may have belonged to his mother. Fingerprints in blood on the rifle were not tested to see if it could have been rabbit or possum blood. And the jury was told that David’s report of hearing his sister gurgling indicated his guilt, without being informed that dead bodies sometimes produce gurgling sounds.

What it adds up to a bias created by a preconceived idea about what happened. Evidence was manipulated, whether deliberately or not, and the jury was not told all the facts. Even if David Bain actually carried out the murders, the trial was not fair.

Unfortunately, the public has a similar perception of many high-profile cases in New Zealand, for example the Scott Watson, Mark Lundy and David Tamihere murder trials. And of course the infamous 1970s Arthur Allan Thomas case, where police were discovered to have planted the most important evidence. Thomas was lucky enough to have a public campaign on his behalf, a Royal Commission of Inquiry and eventually a Prime Ministerial pardon and $1 million in compensation for jail time, even after two guilty verdicts.

If capital punishment had not been abolished, Thomas, Bain and the others would certainly have hanged. They were judged guilty of some of New Zealand’s most heinous crimes. But questions remain about all of these cases. The New Zealand justice system has proven itself barely capable of investigating potential miscarriages of justice, and the police have never quite managed to take responsibility for problematic investigations. And these trials have been marked by character assassination of the suspects, painting them as creepy, deviant or criminal, discouraging people from speaking out in their defense, even if other evidence is little more than circumstantial.

This is, in my opinion, the only valid argument against capital punishment. The worst murderers deserve death, there is no question about that – Graeme Burton is living (unfortunately) proof of that, and his death after his first murder would have saved an innocent man’s life. But there must be no question as to guilt. Terrorism and war provide exceptional circumstances, but there are dangers in establishing varying standards of proof. A man in jail can be released and compensated if he is exonerated: a man in a grave cannot.

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70 Responses to “David Bain, the Privy Council and capital punishment”

Great post.

“A man in jail can be released and compensated if he is exonerated: a man in a grave cannot.”

I think that effectively captures my own aversion to capital punishment. It’s not about moral standards or the “barbarism” of the penalty, rather the blatant imperfection and fallibility of a human system. It’s never 100% correct but death is 100% final. Exoneration doesn’t mean jack if your pushing up the daisies.

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Fully agreed. I don’t consider the death penalty for murder barbaric, but cases like the above show exactly how the court system can make mistakes.

I just did a post on cults in Papua New Guinea. It didn’t occur to me while I was writing it, but many of the Bain family problems seemed to start while they were missionaries in PNG, and the mother allegedly became involved in the occult. The distinction between the Core and the Gap gets pretty fuzzy sometimes.

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Pussies.
Ignorant pseudointellectuals.
Bain did it and only because some washed-up hasbeen ex rugby player decides that the ref got it wrong do we even hear this guys (Bain’s) name.
Does anyone but Bain know?
I do. He did it, and you really must agree with me because to suggest that he is innocent just because of the time on a friggin steam-driven computer indicated he couldnt have been there is just so bloody ignorant.

Get it right. He is not innocent.
http://nzturmoil.blogspot.com

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sure the police may have messed up her…e and there but they got the right guy!. Bain junior did the deed.

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Kabe (and Motavenger), you may well be right. But that question is for a jury to decide, and hopefully a decision on a retrial will be announced soon. I believe in such a case where the jury has to choose between two suspects, there is reasonable doubt as long as one suspect cannot be excluded. But that depends on what new evidence the Crown can put forward.

Another NZ mass murderer faces a decision on his freedom this month, too, but I haven’t seen anything on Raymond Ratima in the news. I think his third parole hearing will be this month.

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Apparently, David’s brother put up a huge fight for his life, yet no blood was found on his father Robin, but his brother’s blood was found on David Bain. I think that Joe Karmam has fought on because he was determined to prove he was right, rather than have egg on his face. If I was a juror I would convict David Bain on the evidence of his brother’s blood. That is the evidence the jury heard at the last trial and that’s the evidence a jury will hear again.

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I read this comment from one of the jurors who convicted David and is happy with his decision on the evidence he heard at the trial – for an against. He said everything pointed to David (bearing in mind that there was no blood on the father but blood on David:

“What I thought was most amazing was the brother’s room. A hell of a mess, the blood in the room, everywhere. The fight in there must have been a battle. Whoever did that in there, the whole house must have been woken up.

“David was young and his father was an older man. How he could fight with his son, I don’t know. I couldn’t imagine the father could have the stamina to fight his son like that.

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Maybe the brother put up a fight and maybe he didn’t, just like maybe the thing in the phot was a glasses lens and maybe it was a reflection, and maybe the real glasses lens was David’s and maybe it wasn’t, maybe Robin’s body was moved before the Police photographer was allowed in and maybe it wasn’t, maybe either David or Robin had powder residue on their hands and maybe they didn’t. The bloodied sock prints are good enough for me – you can’t make your feet smaller than they are, and the prints were Robin’s size and not David’s.

If the Police case was compelling and obvious, why did they feel it necessary to omit, modify, and manufacture evidence?

I don’t know for sure, to this day, whether David did it or not, and neither does anyone but him. I do for damned certain that he should never have been convicted – and that does have to be good enough, because if it isn’t, and that is the standard of the judicial system on which we all rely, then we’re no better than the people whom we lock up.

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Well put, Newt. Good to see you back and thanks for the comment.

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No worries…and we hear tonight that he will have another day in Court.

Will this trial be a fair one? Will it be possible to find twelve good jurors and true, who don’t already have an opinion, one way or the other?

What has become of the physical evidence and exhibits in the last thirteen years?

What about the witnesses? Are they all still alive/in the country/of the same mind as they were back then? Can YOU remember accurate detail of what was happening 13 years ago? Personally, without my work diary, I’d be buggered trying to recall what happened last week.

The crime scene, of course, has long since been nothing more than the cold ashes of a pile of smouldering rubble.

In the interests of closure, and David Bain’s compensation, this trial needs to proceed. But equally, it is only being held, in my opinion, because the Establishment wants to save a little face in the light of the Privy Council’s ruling.

I don’t think any jury in New Zealand, even a Dunedin jury, would convict David Bain a second time, in the light of new evidence.

All that aside; the most disturbing thing, to my mind, is that the new trial will not be held until early next year.

Now we all know that justice delayed is justice denied. Why, after all this time, after the initial investigation, the original trial, after DB has spent 12 years in jail, after two appeals, after the Privy Council hearing (and judgement), why, I ask, will it take another six or seven months to bring this back before the Courts?

What evidence or approach could the Crown – or the Police – possibly have, which will take them yet another half a year to put into presentable form?

At the very best, such a performance marks them as manifestly incompetent. At worst, it is something altogether more concerning.

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Regarding the blood or alleged lack of blood on Robin Bain. I suggest that those people who continue to propagate the lie put forward by the trial judge : That there was no blood on Robin Bain. Look at the police photo’s in Karams book and you will see a photo of Robin lying in his lounge bleeding from a head wound in the left temple. The blood trail runs accros his forehead and onto the carpet six to eight inches from his right shoulder.The is a spray of blood on the bean bag next to Robins left shoulder. The beanie that he had been wearing is trapped in the hood of his sweat shirt and there is a blood stain on it.The blood trail on his forehead is unsmudged so it is reasonable to assume that he was not wearing the beanie when he was shot. Also there is no bullet hole in the beanie.. Look now at the other photo’s showing Robins track pants and sweat shirt. These are covered in blood and some of it, in fact most of it is in such a position that it could not possibly have come from The head wound The patch on the right shoulder shown in the photo is actuly behind the shoulder ( The material has been rucked forward to make it appear as if it is on the front of the garment. Ther is a large spot on Robins right elbow, how could that get there from the head wound, ther is blood behind the right knee which again has been rucked forward so it appears on the front of the garment. There is blood under his fingernails and around the quick of the finger nails There is blood on the top of the hood of his sweat shirt (Which is behind the beanie? How could that get there?} and according to the notes of Det Wood who was in charge of Robins body, There was blood behind the hood .It would have been impossible for any of that blood to have come fron Robins head wound. There are logical explanations for Laniet gurgling :For the white cotton that was found in the wound and for the bullet to have split into three bits and for the glasses One final bit of evidence that was lightly brushed aside; The magazine that was found next to Robins hand showed signs of a missfeed which is why it was changed. The rifle was sensetive to any obstrution to the gas flow and the exploding bullet that finaly killed Laniet would have caused the missfeed. If David was the killer, he would not have known that the next time he tried to fire the rifle it would go click and that he would have to change the Mag, that being the case if he had tried to shoot Robin with the rifle in that condition Robin weould have been alerted and defended himself. Whereras if Robin was the killer and went to use the rifle to shoot himself he would then discover the missfeed , have time to change the mag ( which acounts for it being on it’s edge as Robin was probably sitting on the bean bag when he changed it. There are a lot more points but i am gettin tierd of writing signed RON

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If you were going to kill your family (except for one) and then yourself, why would you bother bringing in the morning paper??? Oh, I know the first thing I do in the morning is to go straight to the toilet and not to mention if I get nervous and or anxious; I have a tendency to go to the toilet frequently…so how did Robin Bain manage to kill his family and have a HUGE fight with his young son and then kill himself without going to the loo?? It was found that his bladder was FULL as a result of waking from a nights sleep…He got his news paper, came inside the house was called by David from the lounge, he put the news paper down and went into the room and was then executed by his son. The police had so much evidence to convict David that they did not need to prove motive. This I believe will change with the new trial….as I understand it there have been many people who have provided the police with new evidence. Our fellow jury persons made the right decision the first time and I have faith they will the second.

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Donna:
1. because Robin was a raving madman(and how do you even know David didn’t bring in that newspaper?)
2. bladder wasn’t full; only 400ml; anyway, why did he not urinate before praying, then, huh?
3. how did David’s 300mm feet make all of those 270mm sockprints?

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I have read many books and articles surrounding this case as well as some confidential leaked information from top lawyers working on the case. it is clearly evident that David was indeed the murderer. WHY ON EARTH would Robin leave only David behind? David also had a strong motive… he felt trapped by what he felt was his weird family. just because his conviction was quashed in no way means he is innocent. this second trial is a waste of time

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Why hasn’t more consideration given to the fact that David’s early childhood years were spent in Papua New Guinea. It follows that his earliest enculcuration regarding things like death and dying would very likely have been influenced by the people around him (predominantly not New Zealand Pakehas). It also follows that his reactions in times of extreme stress might likely follow the cultural patterns learned as a small child. As would also any proscribed ways of dealing with spiritual, including supernatural, aspects to do with death. Add to this the fact that sorcery is rife in PNG, and I have to wonder about the prosecution suggestion that David was ‘faking a fit’? How would the behaviour have been interpreted by someone from PNG?

Has a third party ever been suggested?

Marivee, 23 March 2009

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The case was handled badly by the police and justice system, but to be fair, they were using the standards of the day, which we now know are not good enough.
Things have moved on now. If the investigation was done today, the evidence would be spot on and would not leave the doubt that we have now.
I do not know if David Bain is guilty or innocent, but it looks to me that there is enough doubt now to find him not guilty whether he was or not.

This does NOT mean that re-introducing capital punishment is wrong, because current standards and science are so much better now.

My problem is that jurors, steered by soft Judges and unscrupulous defence lawyers, will tend to find the guilty not guilty rather than send them to their execution.

I became aware of this when I watched the trial of the man who murdered my wonderful daughter and another lovely 16 year old girl.
The defence and Judge put pressure on the jury to convict for manslaughter, when it was clearly murder.
Fortunately the Jury were able to see through that, even though they were not told that the murderer had a history of violence. The verdict was murder. They might have fallen soft and gone for manslaughter if we had had the death penalty?

So, theoretically the death penalty might be right, but will it work in the poor legal system that we have now? I don’t think so, unfortunately.

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I wondered why it was never considered that Robin Bain killed his family and after a struggle with Steven, exhausted he went into the lounge and sat down with the gun in his hand. David walked in and realised what had happend, grabbed the gun and shot his father.

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I have a question for anyone to answer. Why do the police think david bain wrote ‘ you are the only one who deserves to stay’ wouldn’t that be a msg to David from Robin and Robin is the one guilty?

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To EMS, this seems like an odd question due to the answer being so obvious.

The “assumption” is that David wrote the message to implicate his father.

That is why the issue of when the computer was turned on is so relevent. If it was turned on when David got back from his paper-run, then the father was already dead so he could not have written it.

Unfortunately the exact time the computer was turned on (or the exact arrival of David for that matter) is subject to debate, and probably cannot be accurately determined.

My opinion (for what it is worth) is that David is probably guilty, but having said that, this does not mean he should have been convicted, based on the utter incompetence of the Police and investigating team at the time.

The reason I believe he is guilty (if I had to make a call) is that I find it very hard to swallow that his father decided “only David” deserved to live. There is absolutely nothing I’ve heard or read to lead me to believe that (in Robins eyes) David was worth sparing over the rest of the family.

So we seem to have the choice that (1) Robin was so angry that he was ready to kill everyone (except David, for some reason that has not been adequately explained IMHO) and was also ready to kill himself, or (2) David killed everyone, and tried to frame his father.

(2) seems much more likely to me, but again, only a jury, privvy to all the facts available, can make the decision as to whether there is actually enough evidence to convict.

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it’s obvious that david is guilty.

there was a lot of blood spilled in his brothers room, so the murderer would have blood on them, as evidenced by the bloody sock prints.

yet there was no blood on robin bain’s shoes or socks (and only his own blood on his body), whereas david’s socks and clothes have his brother’s blood on them, even though in his version of events he didn’t go into his brother’s room.

not even the defence have suggested that robin bain washed up and got changed before killing himself, so the absence of blood on his feet, shoes or socks rules out the possibility of him being the murderer.

this is only one of dozens of pieces of damning evidence – such as david’s fingerprints (in blood) on the rifle along with his brothers. robin’s finger prints were not found on the gun.

how much clearer could it possibly be?

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I was always sitting on the fence about this one until…
I heard the audio of the police call Bain made.
A terrible actor and guilty as sin.
There was a room of about 15 of us, some who thought he was guilty, some thought he was innocent, some – like myself didn’t know.
After hearing that audio. EVERYONE said…
Guilty. I’m unsure of why this hasn’t been played to the jury of the retrial. It can’t have been, because if you hear it, it is obvious he is guilty.

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Jack H – how did you manage to get to hear that?

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What really gives me the shits is imagining how I or my family would look if a bunch of fallible human witnesses were called upon to opine about what kind of people we were, for a nice big audience of about 4 million. Hearing today that Robin Bain was scruffy sends chills down my spine: so, what? scruffy equals murderous? So many NZrs are inhibited and quick to judge, I would hate to have my fate hanging in the balance of their cock-eyed perceptions of anything. Stick to the forensics, surely.

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And I agree on the audio, it really sealed it for me.

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the bain defence seems to be about a bunch of aquaintances claiming what a great guy david is, and what a prick his father was. it doesn’t cut it so far imo.

at the end of the day, all the forensic evidence points to david, and there’s a truck load of it.

david would have calculated that robin makes an easy scapegoat. If Laniet would tell the local dairy owner about her incestuous relationship, David must have known as well. That must have made it considerably easier for David to justify killing his dad. This is why i think he attempted to(and still is) frame his father.

problem is david messed up and didn’t do it clean, his brother fought heroically, getting blood on david’s clothing. not to mention that fibres from david’s sweater were found under stephen’s fingernails and david had the marks of a struggle on his body.

had david gotten away with it, he’d get all the families money and a stack load of public sympathy which would have been great for his singing career…

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In regard to what the defence has so far put forward in the David Bain trial (May 13th 2009)I’m still waiting to hear just one piece of solid, hard evidence against Robin Bain.
Where are the incriminating fingerprints,blood spots or DNA etc etc…come on Mr Reed & your pathetic team..show us what you are made of.

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The strangest thing about the defence case seems to be the wide open possibility they are leaving that Robin’s alleged incest and depression could be argued as a strong or stronger motivation for David to commit the murders. Testimony so far has established that David may have called the family meeting, that Laniet may have been nervous about going and may have been intending to talk about the incest, and that David was upset by the meeting and fought with Robin during it (and has claimed this was about the use of a chainsaw). Why does any of this point towards Robin’s despair more than it does to David’s disgust, shame and anger? Certainly a subtlety that might not work in court, but even the supposed suicide note’s concept of David “deserving” to live could resonate more believably with a righteous young man’s view of himself more than a depressed and murderous father?

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Robin was the man David is innocent. The police are corrupt fancy destroying the main evidence.

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“..David Bain told a school friend that he could rape a woman and use his paper round as a false alibi..

.. according to secret evidence that was suppressed during his murder trial.

The jury in the 12-week trial never heard the witness statements of the former Bayfield High School students..

.. as the Court of Appeal ruled that the Crown evidence was too prejudicial against Mr Bain.

Now that Mr Bain has been found not guilty of murder, the Herald can reveal the evidence of Mark Buckley and Gareth Taylor..

.. who say Mr Bain planned a rape of a female jogger while at high school..”

go to source/story>>David Bain trial: Alibi-plan evidence kept secret from jury – National – NZ Herald News

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“Robin was the man”? Really? What evidence points to that?

‘Not guilty’ is not quite the same as ‘innocent’.

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>>1. because Robin was a raving madman(and how do you even know David didn’t bring in that newspaper?)

There’s no evidence to suggest Robin had been behaving irrationally. David was the one ‘zoning out’ in the weeks prior to the killings.

>>2. bladder wasn’t full; only 400ml; anyway, why did he not urinate before praying, then, huh?

400ml is a full bladder. Look it up.

>>3. how did David’s 300mm feet make all of those 270mm sockprints?

Because not all of his sock had blood on it – i.e. not the toes/heel for instance – or he was creeping around on the balls of his feet. Easily explained. How did Robin’s feet make the prints if he was wearing clean slippers and socks? What happened to the bloody socks he was wearing if they’re his footprints? They don’t exist because it didn’t happen.

DAVID’S BLOODY GLOVES WERE FOUND AT THE SCENE, AND HIS BROTHER’S BLOOD WAS ON HIS CLOTHES. HE DID IT.

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35 reasons to prove Robin did it

So what do you have to believe, to think Robin was the killer? This list is not comprehensive, and is even a bit repetitive. But here goes:

It was a lucky guess when David Bain told 111 ambulance officer they are all dead, despite later saying he only saw two bodies
Again a lucky guess hen DB told police officer they are all dead
The 25 minute gap between DB finding his family dead and calling 111 is in no way connected with trying to wash clothes and removed blood.
The bruise on David’s head and scratches on his chest and graze on his knee – none of which he could explain, were just a coincidence
The lens from his glasses found in Stephen’s room happened weeks ago and he never noticed OR someone else had borrowed the glasses
The lack of fresh injuries on Robin despite the massive struggle with Stephen is just the product of healthy living
David’s finger prints on gun are from a previous time
David telling a friend he had premonition something bad was going to happen was a genuine psychic experience
Stephen’s blood on David’s clothing was nothing to do with the struggle – OR someone else borrowed his clothes
Robin managed to execute his family on a full bladder
The lock and key to the rifle being found in David’s room is not relevant as they were obviously placed there
Robin decided to wash David’s green jersey to remove blood and the fibres from jersey found under Steven’s finger nails
David’s bloody palm print on the washing machine was from him checking the bodies
The Ambulance officer was wrong when he said in his opinion Bain was pretending to have a fit
Robin Bain would logically wear gloves to prevent fingerprints despite it being a murder-suicide
That Robin Bain would type a message on a computer for David telling him he is the only one who deserves to live, instead of writing a note. A hand written note incidentally would have cleared David.
Also that having just shot his family, and knowing David was due home, that Robin would wait 44 seconds for the computer to boot up to leave a message
Robin would decide David deserved to live, but go out of his way to frame him for murder
Robin Bain placed fibres from Davids jersey under Stephen’s finger nails
Robin Bain would shoot himself with a gun in the most awkward way possible?
That Robin Bain changed jerseys after he had killed his family and in particular Stephen Bain, washed the jersey, hung it on the line and then change into a brown jersey before killing himself?
That there is a logical reason that David Bain can not account for the injuries on his face, the bruise or the scraped knee, yet knows he did not have them during his paper run.
That Robin Bain put blood on the inside of David’s duvet and on his light switch
That there is an innocent explanation for why David says he put on washing before he discovered the bodies, yet there is a blood print on the washing machine.
That Laniet was being paranoid when she told friends she was scared of David
That the “family meeting” David called the previous night and insisted everyone attended was not a way to make sure everyone would be at home to kill.
That Robin Bain would wear a hat while shooting himself in the head.
That even though David told a relative he hated his father, his father did not know this and deliberately decided David was the only one who deserved to live
That David either imagined hearing Laniet gurgling or she gurgled 20 minutes after death
That Laniets allegation of incest with Robin was true, as was her claims she had given birth three times by the age of 12 and a half.
That Robin Bain managed to kill four family members without a single trace of his blood, skin, or DNA being left at the scene.
That it is a coincidence that on the morning of the murders Bain took his dog onto a property, ensuring he would be noticed to give him an alibi.
That the magazine found balanced on an edge next to Robin was not placed there by David but fell onto its edge from Robin’s arms.
That a sickly Robin Bain managed to overpower his teenage son who put up a furious fight
That Robin Bain went and got the newspaper from outside, despite planning to shoot himself

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Ryan, you have said it all so well. It makes me sick to my stomach that the smarmy creep has got away with it, & that funding is pouring in. unfortunately the jury could not distinguish between reasonable doubt, & any doubt at all.

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“But he’s such a nice guy, so polite, and he loves it when we come to visit him….”

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In my mind, David Bain is not ‘innocent’ as the “Not Guilty” decision may suggest, essentially it is a fact that the prosecution case was “not proven”, i.e ‘insufficient evidence to convict the accused’.
‘Guilty beyond reasonable doubt’ is a very powerful question put to a jury required to enter a verdict , and obviously in this case the defence team made a very good meal of this. I think the average intelligent kiwi has decided in their own minds who the killer is, but the prosecution could not offer sufficient evidence to persuade this jury to convict the accused. Perhaps the NZ judicial system should follow the example of the Scottish courts and state the “Not Proven” verdict as opposed to the “Not Guilty” verdict. I personally find the former statement more acceptable in regards to this retrial.

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Ryan sums it up: on all the evidence David Bain is guilty of murdering his family beyond reasonable doubt. I now think he did it for the inheritance, why else would he kill is younger siblings. The fact that he wanted a wonder bra on his younger sister, shows he had more knowledge and interest in her than a normal brother would have of his sister. Joe Karam leaves me cold because he has known this evidence against David Bain for all these years and he must know he’s guilty. David Bain will crack in the end and both of them will come out worse off in the end than if David had served his sentence and let this die peaceably..

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I listened to the dicussions on radio live yesterday in regard to the David Bain Verdict.
The talkback host was James Coleman…whow! was I surprised at the stupid comments this host made in defence of David Bain…for example when a talkback caller mentioned the scratches on David Bains face or forehead, Mr Coleman mentioned something about David having a bad complexion…now come on!!..also when another caller asked Mr Coleman why there were none of Robin Bains fingerprints on the rifle he replied something to the effect of “Maybe the gun wasn’t tested for Robins prints…what else can I say?

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[...] Pacific Empire Blog Archive David Bain the Privy Council and Posted by root 7 minutes ago (http://pacificempire.org.nz) I read this comment from one of the jurors who convicted david and is happy with his decision the is a spray of blood on the bean bag next to robins left shoulder came inside the house was called by david from the lounge he put the news paper down and pac Discuss  |  Bury |  News | Pacific Empire Blog Archive David Bain the Privy Council and [...]

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The not guilty verdict has put me off humanity really. How can people be so ignorant and stupid. I have followed both trials in detail and cannot understand how that verdict was reached. And in such a short time – a trial that took 3 months deliberated in 6 hours. What an insult to the taxpayers who have paid 20 million dollars plus so that Joe (The Ego) Karam can get his baby another go at the so called justice system. And what an insult to the memory of Robin Bain (no wonder he was down and smelly with a control freak cock like David ruling the roost – shades of Kronos!) And what a monumental kick in the guts for the Dunedin relatives who are convinced David did it and who were needing justice to be seen to be done. (Why did not one member of his family support him – Join the `friends of David Bain) That verdict must have brought their grief back a hundred fold and added anger to the mix. The whole jury hugging and celebrating stuff was surreal – what is wrong with these people. Hopefully David and Pappy Joe (who must know he did it) will get theirs – if not in this life then in the next.

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The amount of crucial evidence against David Bain that was ruled out by the Court of Appeal is quite staggering,based on the fact that it was too prejudicial to his defence.
Helen Cull Q.C. & Michael Reed both worked furiously to ensure this happened, & unless they are both stupid must have been convinced David Bain was the killer.
Only if that jury had been able to hear all the available evidence, but would it have really made that much difference given what we now know about those jury members?

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joe karams new book how i got sucked in by a psycopath

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Someone(s) need(s) to explain Robin’s contact gunshot, his blood on the curtain, combined with his blood on the beanbag, 2.2 metres northeast of the curtain. I’ll go first: Robin inverted the rifle, with strap up, and scope down, for better balance. He braced the rifle butt against the chair’s seat, put his right foot on that chair seat, held the rifle barrel in the 70 mm gap between forestock and silencer, and fired, with the silencer slightly angled upwards against his left temple. His collapsing left leg, synchronized with right foot on chair seat, rolled him northeast to the beanbag, and then off to the carpet. To achieve the same result, any 2nd person would have needed to fire the rifle simultaneously with pushing Robin northeast.
And the shot was contact…never mind the obviously angled soot in the wound…Robin’s blood was found INSIDE the rifle barrel.
OK, your turn.

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So after all this,Robin still managed to drop his cartridge case & get it to stand upright on it’s edge, now that must surely be his most clever trick of all.

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Thomas, did you see the re-trial’s opening day highlights? The photographs showed, in David’s room: trigger lock lying down + trigger lock standing upright(on its “narrow” edge); bullets lying down + bullets standing upright(on their “narrow” edges); washing machine lid down + washing machine upright(on its “narrow” edge). The rifle’s spare magazine, standing upright on its “narrow” edge was just another object, moved after the troops arrived.

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David Bain would have to be the so-called ‘psycopath’ that Joe Karam is referring to in his new book, wouldn’t he?

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Research studies reveal that sexual abuse claims, by young women against their fathers, are
untrue in ~10% of those claims(i.e., those claims are true ~90% of the time)
Related research reveals that young women, abused by their fathers, often have real pregnancies,
imaginary(‘hysterical’) pregnancies, abortions, suicide attempts, careers in prostitution, and nightmares.
And those young women, under threat from their fathers not to reveal the true source of the
abuse, claim that the abuse is from a non-family member(for example, a neighbour, of a different race, or different ethnicity), to ‘protect’ the family member.
A highly successful criminal profiler said, “Whoever hated this girl[Laniet] the most was the killer.”
Robin’s hatred of Laniet simply could have been because she’d told him he would “not be
getting any more”.
I don’t know the term, ‘psycopath’.
I have read the definition of the term, ‘psychopath’.
I think that simple hatred, rather than psychopathology, was
the cause of the unfortunate effect.

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In regard to Jane’s comments on the washing machine lid down +washing machine lid upright etc…well at least that did not effect the crucial ‘blood’ evidence that was found on the machine….who’s was that?
Just as an add-on I have reliable evidence that the great bulk of the legal fraternity all believe that David is guilty of the mass murder of his family, & I strongly suspect that it would probably include members of David’s defence team….just quietly, but of course they’re only in it for the money, arn’t they.

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Whose blood was on the washing machine? No one knows if any blood was on the washing machine. What was thought to be blood could have been optical brighteners, added to many detergents, and reactive with luminol.
Or it could have been human, or non-human, blood.
The only tested blood from the laundry was small samples of Robin’s blood, found on a green towel, hanging and left to dry, with obvious non-concern for its eventually certain discovery.
Robin’s hands had small bleeding injuries, and a badly damaged, bleeding fingernail, to produce those samples on the green towel.
Opinions of the legal fraternity, or legal sorority, would be less valid than opinions of the plumbing fraternity, or plumbing sorority.
Plumbers would have a better understanding of Cropp’s evidence of the curtain blood, considered with the beanbag blood, from Robin’s contact gunshot wound.
The legal fraternity should explain how blood spatter hit the curtain, and then the beanbag, in the necessarily brief time interval required for Robin’s body to fall to the floor.

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People working within the legal fraternity during the trial were able to gauge many things from the ‘inside’ that the public never got to know about or would have been able to see, including observing & hearing comments around the courts during the days of the trial…often before & after the court sessions.
As for the comment regarding the plumber…that’s amusing as most plumbers would be pretty thick compared to any lawyer…that’s why they are plumbers, & many would not even have a decent grasp of the English language.
It’s the sheer awkwardness of the way that Robin would have had to have held & used that rifle to shoot himself that intigues me….why would anyone want to go to that much trouble to end their life?
It was reported that someone asked Joe Karam’s son after the trial if he thought David was innocent, & apparently he was quite hesitant with his answer, making comments such as…Oh well there was evidence on both sides I guess…not terribly convincing from someone belonging to David’s defence team.

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“why would anyone want to go to that much trouble to end their life?”…
Expert testimony was that suicide by Robin’s method was easy.

“It was reported that someone asked Joe Karam’s son after the trial if he thought David was innocent, & apparently he was quite hesitant”…
Who made that ‘report’? And who described the ‘apparent’ hesitancy?
Who created the distinctive bite marks on Robin’s hands?(some of those marks look like letters from the Greek alphabet).
Why did Arawa tearfully tell her college friend that she wished that Robin would just “f off and leave the rest of us alone”?
Why did Laniet tell high school friends that Robin was abusing her sexually?
Why didn’t Arawa run for help from her father, less than 20 metres away, when she was awakened by the ‘violent struggle’ upstairs?
Why did the dog, tied up on the front porch, not bark during the ‘violent struggle’?
How could Robin have been oblivious to the disturbance, and how could he fail to see lights being switched on and off in the house?
Why did Robin bathe only once a year, or less frequently?
How could an alleged shooter shoot a non-sleeping, moving human target, at contact range, without any blood landing on the shooter, and how could the shooter fire at point blank range, while simultaneously pushing the human target forcefully enough to propel the human target 2.2 metres northeast from the human target’s position?
Why would anyone even consider rumours circulating around a courtroom by lawyers paid by the police to spin the desired yarn?

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Ill tell you this, I would have more faith in so-called rumors circulating around a courtroom, & some outside of the courtroom also than that bunch of incompetent fools that made up the jury in the Bain trial…now ask yourself who is more intelligent….seriously!
Also, I’ve always wondered why Robin Bains fingerprints were never able to be detected on the murder weapon…a rifle I think it is.

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ll tell you this, I would have more faith in
my own consideration of non-corruptible evidences including, but not limited to the following:
1. blood on beanbag + blood on curtain, produced within the same 3 second duration, from a CONTACT gunshot wound to an awake, non-sleepy, physically-fit, CLEAN SHAVEN man.
(curtain blood was NEVER mentioned at the 1st trial, understandably, because it would have instantly focused attention on the CHAIR)
2. Laniet’s tearful allegations, which couldn’t be planted, nor hidden, by the police
3. The historically FIRST time, ever, that a lunchbox carrying accused man went to his trial every morning, NOT from a jail cell, but from his private apartment, like a normal person(e.g., a plumber, a truck driver, or a lawyer).
We were looking for a crazy person, but we couldn’t see one…by process of elimination, I’m saying the crazy person is the one we can’t see, because he’s been buried for 15+ years.
I don’t need to listen to ‘rumours’ or to watch some reporter’s TV doco, or to read another reporter’s error-ridden trial review…
now ask yourself who is more intelligent?….seriously!
Fingerprints found couldn’t be identified, and rarely are found on firearms, even in known suicide cases. I’ve always “wondered” why
“positive fingerprints in blood” weren’t found on some or all of the blood stained lightswitches…oh, that’s right…that evidence was helpfully burned down…
And when did Robin shave, to become “clean shaven, except for his moustache”?

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I have faith in the findings of a one Dr. Dempster, who among other things concluded that suicide was highly unlikely due to the angle of the gunshot wound, & also that those minor wounds found on Robin’s hands could have been up to around 18 hours old, could have happened anywhere & anyway when performing his general duties around his household or property.

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I was also given information from a final year law student, who was one of a class of fifteen students who all took an interest in the David Bain case & did honest research on all the available evidence, that class also included a young woman who was dubbed the brightest & highest scoring student in the country…now conclusively there was no doubt in the minds of every one of those students that David was the guilty one…now I would have more faith in this bunch of students than that jury, some of whom obviously were not paying proper attention to all that was being said during the trial, but even if they had paid full attention they still would have been restricted by the limitations of their minds.
Talking about juries, it would be quite an easy job for any legal defence to cast some doubt in the minds of a jury, no matter how good & solid the crown’s evidence was…simple minds would be easy influenced, & somewhat nervous to have the courage to vote in the way that they really felt.

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In his own contemporaneous notes, Dempster wrote:

“The distance from the trigger of the rifle to the end of the silencer is 790mm and it is
perfectly feasible for someone of my build to point the rifle, place the muzzle against the
temple and reach the trigger with the arm.”

Why, then, did Dempster testify the OPPOSITE at the 1st trial?

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All of the “available evidence” included:

1.luminol “bloody” sockprints, photographs of which show NOTHING, and carpet samples, containing the alleged sockprints, conveniently destroyed.

2. fingerprints, testified to have been made in blood by scientists/experts who admitted that the sample material never had been tested, and that the photographic polarity had been reversed, to appear consistently with bloody fingerprints, and that blood “fluoresced black” under a polilight.

3. “green fibres”, later described as “brown fibres”, under fingernails, and has anyone ever seen photographs of those fibres, under those fingernails?

Martin van Beynan also forgot that the “missing 20 minutes” never had been missing, according to the witness who knew the real truth of the emergency call timing.

The simple-minded truly are easily fooled.

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You got that right!..the simple-minded are easily fooled, now why did I immediately think of the Bain trial jury when I read that comment?
As for Dr. Dempster admitting that this or that might have been possible in relation to how the rifle was positioned, interesting thing is the fact that these discussions were held at all…who on earth would ever go to that much trouble to shoot themselves, virtually no one as statistics would back up that fact.
Oh yes, was it ever determined how David got those scratch marks on his forehead or face?

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Many people can’t seem to get their head around the fact that ‘acquittal’ does not necessarily mean ‘innocent’….so no compensation for David until he or his ‘gang’ can produce that silver bullet piece of evidence that would prove his innocence,which however is highly unlikely for obvious reasons.

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Whatever “trouble” Robin experienced, in shooting himself, is overwhelmed by the problems ANY hypothetical 2nd shooter would have had, to silently approach an alert, awake target, then to recover from the quite-audible CLICK of a rifle misfeed, and then to achieve a contact-range shot, which produced synchronously matching blood spots on curtain and beanbag.
To me, the “startling new evidence” was blood on the curtain. Why was it NEVER MENTIONED in the first trial? I believe it wasn’t mentioned because the fallen position of the rifle, and of Robin, immediately force focus to the chair, and to the piece of furniture, a likely rifle bracing point, just behind the chair.
Maybe the high-scoring law student could explain how 8 blood spots were produced on the curtain, from an obviously-falling source, according to Cropp, ~300 mm distant from the curtain’s surface, and at ~1.2 m above the floor, and arcing in its descent toward parallel trails of blood spots on the beanbag, ~2.4 metres northeast of the curtain.

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The rifle is partially underneath the west(bloodstained) curtain, as shown in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRwUqReEheE

Why would a hypothetical suspect place the rifle partially underneath that alcove curtain, or ANYWHERE NEAR that alcove curtain, if the hypothetical suspect was intent on “arranging the scene” to suggest that the victim had been shot from a rifle fired completely, and only, in the lounge, rather than a rifle fired from the alcove, or even from near the alcove?

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I would like to know what the crown’s theory or reasoning was as to why that rifle was partially underneath the west bloodstained curtain?…just as I’d like to know the defence’s response as to how those facial cuts might have got on Davids face or forehead….wouldn’t have been as a result of a violent struggle by any chance would it?
But having said these things, one could go on forever isolating this piece & that piece of evidence, but it is the collective weight of all the evidence that mostly influences people one way or the other.
In the Bain case the mass weight & volume of evidence against David far outweighed any evidence against Robin, & what’s more the police apparently had bucket loads more evidence that could have been used in court if needed…then of course there was that inadmissible evidence against David that the jury did not & was not allowed to hear.

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The Crown didn’t have a theory for why the rifle was partially underneath the bloodstained west curtain, nor did the Crown even admit that blood as evidence in the first trial. But the police video cameraman did focus on the CHAIR.
Even the cameraman understood that the chair was the focal point, between the curtain and beanbag.
There were ‘bumps’, but no ‘facial cuts’ on either suspect. The suspect known to be at home ALL of the time in question, who didn’t leave the property, does have, on his right hand, a mark which resembles a letter from the Greek alphabet.
That mark resulted when Stephen bit Robin’s hand.
‘Evidence’ that wasn’t admitted wasn’t evidence, but the police could be creating new ‘evidence’ even now. They could plant two blond hairs in a plastic bag, and go for conviction on new charges.
It’s the miracle of creation.
And police spinners will be spinning this for thousands of years, just as they were spinning the yarn that they were doing “a good job”, leaving a two-year old down a drain, while they excitedly(and stupidly) chased a phantom abduction.

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It seems that you have a grudge to bear about the NZ Police. I guess you think everyone is innocent then? If DB has nothing to hide, why did he not give evidence in his own defence, why has he not fronted the New Zealand public, why has he not given even 1 interview? I ask every person when the subject of DB comes up….what is the first thing you do when you get up in the morning…what do you do Jane? The answer I receive…they use the toilet. So how did Robin at his age manage to plan and kill his family and also have a struggle with his young son and kill himself with out passing a drop! Defies nature if you ask me! DB did commit this crime…why not do a lie detector test is he has nothing to hide, because those with any sense know that he planned and killed his family and tried to make it look like his father did it.

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1. no, but this man is innocent, legally and factually, based on overwhelming probabilities, as I’ve typed above(ludicrous improbability of Robin’s homicide, and very high probability of past crimes committed by Robin, against Laniet.
2.
a) his legal counsel prevented his testimony, but he had testified as a younger man
b) he did ‘front’ the NZ public, clearly and strongly stating “not guilty”, 5 clearly spoken times, and after the verdicts, on 05 June 2009
c) interviews would detract from future book revenues
3. My 1st morning chore is making coffee, but if peeing was Robin’s overwhelming priority, why had he NOT peed before (hypothetically) walking from his caravan, PAST the toilet, PAST many, deserving outside bushes, and to the (hypothetical) morning newspaper, and then into the lounge/alcove? Was Robin planning to pee into the lounge, or into the alcove, or did he really not need to pee at all, at that time?
4. Robin was only 58, and he did have a rifle, and 4 SLEEPING victims, so it wasn’t difficult.
5. If DB did a “lie detector” test, you wouldn’t believe the results anyway…and, yes, it certainly look like “HIS FATHER DID IT.”

And I don’t blame the police for loss of the 2-year old, primary responsibility for whom was her mother. I do blame the spinners for later claiming a “good job” done, because that also wasn’t true.

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Oh! such a breath of fresh air to to read what Donna has written here…such a logical & rational thinker is she.
There most definitely was supressed & inadmissable evidence against David Bain that the jury did not hear…can’t be bothered to type it all out now, but quite easy for any party with such interest to google it….it relates to his planned rape etc etc.
Now point (1) in Jane’s last letter is rediculous…to say that David is innocent legally & factually based on overwhelming probablilities….Oh! I don’t really know what to say on that??..it defies me….sounds more like Robin to me.

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Homicide Stats with Longarms: research study by
Grandmaison et al, Forensic Science International 2008
41% Contact/Near Contact fatalities are homicides.
Fatalities with Front to Back component to Trajectory: 26% are homicides.
Fatalities with Left to right component to trajectory: 17% are homicides.
Fatalities with upward component to trajectory: 14% are homicides.
Therefore, the probability of homicide using a rifle in a contact or near contact execution, in which the bullet has a front to back, left to right, upward trajectory is approximately 0.2%, which is exactly 1 chance out of 500 for Robin’s death to have been by homicide.

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Incest claims made by daughters against their fathers have been found to be false 10$ of the time.
Only 40% of prostitutes have NOT been victims of sexual abuse.
Therefore, the statistical probability that Laniet’s claims about Robin were not true is
4% and, the probability that Laniet’s claims were true is 96%.
Consider that 96%, with the 500 to 1 probability that Robin’s death was by suicide, and the balance of guilt probability rolls precipitously toward Robin.

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Robin had NO blood on him? Karams book David and Goliath is readily available now in second hand book shops. Spend a couple of dollars and buy one . Do what I did, cut out the photographic plates,scan them into a printer,blow them up to A 4 size. Then use your eyes. You will see that Robin Bain was COVERED in blood.You will also see that most of the blood stains are in positions on his clothing and hands where it would be IMPOSSIBLE for the blood to have got there from his own head wound.If the blood on Robin could not have got there from his own head wound, then it must have come from the fight with Stephen and it must be Stephens blood.
This raises serious questions because the ESR scientists stated that they found that the blood on Robin Bain was all his own blood.
Can the ESR scientists can give a logical and intelligent explanation as to how blood got behind Robins right knee? Behind his right shoulder?
Behind the hood of his blue jacket? Behind his right elbow? Round the periphery of the fingernail shown in the photo? Under the fingernails that were scraped by Dr Hentschell? and the most puzzling of the blood on Robin bain. The single trail of blood above Robins right eyebrow? This does not connect with the pristine trails of blood that come from the wound in the left temple and flow clear and unsmudged over his fore head onto the carpet. The only logical explanation for this short trail is that it came from the fight with Stephen.
If the tests done by the ESR show that the blood on Robin Bain is all Robins,and the evidence of the photos shows that it cannot possibly be. Then we are faced with the following scenarios.
(1) The ERS tests were unable to differentiate between Robins blood and Stephens blood ( Dr Cropp Apparently was unable to match various blood stains round the house with either Margaret,Stephen Laniet or Arawa or David)
(2) During the many years that the clothing was stored (How and by whom?)It became contaminated somehow.
(3) Someone deliberately smeared Robins blood over the existing blood stains
(4) As in the David Docherty case the ESR got it wrong.

If Robin was wearing the beanie and the hoodie up over his head when he came in the house, as he must have been at some stage otherwise how could blood get on the front and the back of the hood?
Why, then, No bullet hole in the hood or the beanie. If David was supposed to have shot him when he came in and knelt down to say his prayers, let us assume that he had the hood up over his head. David shoots him at that impossible angle for anyone else to inflict.
(1) No bullet hole.
(2) The beanie would have prevented the blood trail over the fore head.
(3) Blood could possibly have got onto the front of the beanie, but onto the back??
(4) If the hood was over the beanie, how did blood get onto the beanie??
(5) At what stage was the hood and the beanie pushed back off of Robins head trapping the beanie in the hood??
(6) In the photo showing the head of Robin with the beanie trapped in the hood. The beanie covers up the heavy blood stain on the front of the hood. So, if an alternative scenario is postulated:ie,that Robin came in to get shot by David with the hood over his back and the beanie trapped in the hood. How, in that case could the blood get past the beanie and onto the hood??
These are simple straight forward questions that should have been asked by the defence lawyers in both trials. The guilt or innocence of Robin is clearly established by this blood evidene.
I discussed this many years ago with Joe Karam over the telephone. Joe told me that Dr Dempster the pathologist had pushed the hood and the beanie back off of Robins head when he came in to examine the body. I accepted this at the time but since examining the evidence many times since then, I suggest that if the hoody and the beanie had been left over Robins head for 4 or 5 hours ( Which was how long it took before the Police let Dempster in) The the blood trails on the fore head would not have been clear and pristine. They would have been absorbed by the wool and they would have been smudged when the beanie was removed.
There is contributing evidence that Robin was the killer which came from a Crown witness;Dr Hentschell. He stated in evidence when asked by Mr Raftery The prosecutor,’What did you find in the scrapings from under Stephens fingernails/” Hentschell answered. “Green Wool Fibres and Brown Wool Fibres “.
He went on to try and connect the green fibres with a green jersey that had been through the wash. He apparently was unaware that the other potential killer in the house, Robin Bain, was actually wearing A GREEN WOOLEN HAT AND A BROWN WOOLEN JUMPER.
The beanie is Green Wool and the Brown jumper is shown pulled out at the waist and visible at the neck in the photo of Robin in the lounge. Ron

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Another serious question arises also and that is the ease with which the Police can apparently dispose of evidence at will. They threw away the bullets from the Crewes heads in The Arthur Allen Thomas case. They allowed the house to be burnt down in the Bain case BEFORE the defence had time to get their own experts to look at the scene. Det Robinson destroyed what today would have been vital evidence which would have established beyond any doubt who was the killer. The blood slides from Robins finger and thumb. Peter Doone was going to have all the evidence destroyed if Karam had not taken legal steps to stop him, The Bain Family seemed to have a lot of pull with the authorities in Dunedin. I understand that it was at their initiative that the house was destroyed and they wasted no time getting it ready for sale did they?
When that House was burnt down it was still owned by David as he was at that stage awaiting trial and was not found guilty until a year later. Ron

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Donna asks “Why did Robin bring in the morning paper”
There is a simple and logical explanation for that. Robin wanted to make sure that David had left on his paper round. It was freezing cold that morning ,so he wasn’t going to wait out side . He waited until about 5-45 and then went up to the front gate to see if David had picked up his papers for delivery. His own paper had arrived, so out of habit Robin picked it up and took it back into the house and put it on the hall stand Ron

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